Rogue 4.0
Moderators: Texaporte, sphie, Pocky
Rogue 4.0
So I'm approaching 80 and the start of instancing. Currently spec'd Sub/Combat but I understand Assassination is the way to go for groups. Could one of our resident rogue masters post a suggested build and DPS rotation so I the padawan can learn? ^_^
Re: Rogue 4.0
I only know Combat, though you really don't need to take a cookie-cutter build because after the core talents (which you will easily identify as "obvious" choices), anything else is fine. Rotation is simple: Sinistrike spam, keep Slice & Dice up, Revealing strike once before 5 combo points, and eviscerate/rupture at 5 points.
Theorycrafters say keeping the bleed up is very important, but reality says that all eviscerates is where your damage is at. Theorycrafters also hate wasted combo points, like how Revealing Strike + Sinistrike spam can get you 6 combo points unintentionally- so they argue simulations endlessly about whether using abilities at 4 or 5+ is better. And again, the truth is that they're simulating against training dummies, so it's worthless info on each real fight.
Rotation is also worthless due to situational needs. Constantly needing to run away from a boss, you might leave a rupture on them before leaving. If you're the only interrupter, you may well find yourself kicking, using kidney shot ("waste" of combo points), and even gouging (from the front) to interrupt more often than kick lets you. Don't forget blind as a dirt-in-your-eye interrupt. Situationally, you'll also "waste" combo points on recuperate to keep your health ticking back; this is both "save the healer mana" and "dead dps is zero dps".
Ideally, you'd also adrenaline rush and killing spree whenever they were up. Really, you will use them whenever they're up, if the situation allows it. Usually gotta save adrenaline for a burn opportunity, and killing spree when there's no other targets around. Except when you're trying to attack other targets, like adds. Blade flurry is super useful too, when glyphed to save on energy, since you can continue to dps the boss and still beat on adds... situationally.
Theorycrafters say keeping the bleed up is very important, but reality says that all eviscerates is where your damage is at. Theorycrafters also hate wasted combo points, like how Revealing Strike + Sinistrike spam can get you 6 combo points unintentionally- so they argue simulations endlessly about whether using abilities at 4 or 5+ is better. And again, the truth is that they're simulating against training dummies, so it's worthless info on each real fight.
Rotation is also worthless due to situational needs. Constantly needing to run away from a boss, you might leave a rupture on them before leaving. If you're the only interrupter, you may well find yourself kicking, using kidney shot ("waste" of combo points), and even gouging (from the front) to interrupt more often than kick lets you. Don't forget blind as a dirt-in-your-eye interrupt. Situationally, you'll also "waste" combo points on recuperate to keep your health ticking back; this is both "save the healer mana" and "dead dps is zero dps".
Ideally, you'd also adrenaline rush and killing spree whenever they were up. Really, you will use them whenever they're up, if the situation allows it. Usually gotta save adrenaline for a burn opportunity, and killing spree when there's no other targets around. Except when you're trying to attack other targets, like adds. Blade flurry is super useful too, when glyphed to save on energy, since you can continue to dps the boss and still beat on adds... situationally.
"Let the dice decide!"
Re: Rogue 4.0
Camyu is assassination. Daewen is combat. I'm not sure about Lemeeng. Assassination provides Master Poisoner buff which is 8% damage increase to spell damage. Combat provides physical damage buff, whereas Subtlety provides Crit buff.
Assassination Spec (4.0.3 at level 85)
Camyu is specced 31/2/8 right now. The point in Deadened Nerves (reduce damage by 3%) can be put in Deadly Brew (apply crippling on top of instant poisons 50% of the time). I also only took 2/3 Precision instead of 3/3, because i put the 1 point in Opportunity. I figure hit on gear can make it up (more on this).
Weapons
MH slow dagger (1.8) - Instant Poisons
OH fast dagger (1.4) - Deadly Poisons
Thrown weapon (for Fan of Knives aoe and use Deadly Poisons) or Gun/Bow (for if you wanna switch out doing single target as a stat stick)
Rotation
To open, stealth to gain the Overkill buff, then Mutilate (or Garrote if you need a silence, or Cheap Shot if you need a stun), then put up Slice and Dice (SnD). From there on, Mutilate to 4+ combo points (cp). Use Rupture at 4+cp if it's not up (to proc Venomous Wounds), otherwise hit Envenom at 4+cp. Envenom also refreshes your SnD, so if you see SnD about to drop, you might want to hit Envenom. When boss is at 35% health or below, use Backstab to build your combo points instead of Mutilate, assuming it is safe to stand behind the boss at the time.
Hit your Tricks of the Trade every 30 seconds on another rogue (if the favor is returned in order to get a 6 second damage bonus). Or hit it on a tank to pass on your threat temporarily. It costs 0 energy if it is glyphed.
Glyphs
Prime: I use Mutilate, Backstab, Rupture. There is a Vendetta glyph that is also an option.
Major: Tricks of the Trade, and then whatever you feel like
Minor: Pick Lock is love. So is Safe Fall.
Stats
For assassination, Agility (2.6EP) is the money stat. After that, the theorycrafter says that at T11 gear (which we are not at currently):
Yellow hit (?) > Spell hit (1.4) > Mastery (1.3) > Haste (1.2) > Expertise (1.1) > Crit (0.9)> White hit (0.75?)
Yellow hit is for Specials attacks and there is really no way to miss this. Spell hit is for poison hit cap, and since assassination rogues are very heavy in poison damage, this is important. White hit is for auto-attacks. I forgot all the numbers required, but at 2/3 Precision, the hit number I care about is 1332 (17% spell hit). Expertise is kinda meh because of the fact that we are spelly, and Crit lags pretty far behind that.
Cooldowns and tricks when you get heroism or some fight mechanic that allows you to do insane damage
- Vendetta: 20% damage increase for 30 seconds on a 2-minute CD
- Cold Blood: refunds 25 energy, and your next non-dot attack is a 100% crit. Also on a 2-minute CD
- Vanish: It's not just a oh-shit-dropping-all-threat kind of a button for assassination rogues. When we break stealth, we get the Overkill buff, which allows us to regenerate energy 30% faster for 20 seconds after breaking stealth. So time the use of Vanish smartly.
Other cool rogue utilities that I have on my bars, and yes I use ALL of these. I'm running out of room on my bars...
- Fan of Knives (our only AoE button) - note that you need Thrown weapon for this in the range slot, and you can also put poisons on it. I recommend Deadly, unless the fight calls for Crippling to slow.
- Recuperate - self heal-over-time based on combo points
- Redirect - transfer combo points from target A to target B, 1 minute CD
- Evasion, Combat Readiness for oh-shit tanking
- Cloak of Shadows to remove debuffs (glyphed version also reduce physical damage)
- Feint to reduce threat and reduce AoE taken
- Kick (glyphed version awards successful kickers by decreasing its cooldown, but penalizes you for missing it)
- Kidney Shot (stun!)
- Blind (good when soloing stuff)
- Shiv (mainly to get rid of enrage)
- Dismantle (disarm weapon)
- Deadly Throw (kinda meh but I use it sometimes)
- Eviscerate - put it on your bar, just in case you're not paying attention and you run out of poisons on your daggers. That'll be your backup finisher button, as Envenom won't work without poisons.
- Smoke Bomb (new spell! good for pulling a straggler caster into the group)
- Sprint (and also the worgen mini sprint)
And minimally on your stealth bar (and macro some of these with a Pick Pocket for good thieving)
- Sap
- Distract
- Disarm Trap (was good for the trash room before Marrowgar!)
- Tricks of the Trade
- Cheap Shot
- Garrote
- Mutilate
- Envenom
- Maybe Ambush, but I dont use it much.
- Recuperate (doesn't break stealth)
- Sprint (doesn't break stealth, but the worgen mini sprint does!)
Assassination Spec (4.0.3 at level 85)
Camyu is specced 31/2/8 right now. The point in Deadened Nerves (reduce damage by 3%) can be put in Deadly Brew (apply crippling on top of instant poisons 50% of the time). I also only took 2/3 Precision instead of 3/3, because i put the 1 point in Opportunity. I figure hit on gear can make it up (more on this).
Weapons
MH slow dagger (1.8) - Instant Poisons
OH fast dagger (1.4) - Deadly Poisons
Thrown weapon (for Fan of Knives aoe and use Deadly Poisons) or Gun/Bow (for if you wanna switch out doing single target as a stat stick)
Rotation
To open, stealth to gain the Overkill buff, then Mutilate (or Garrote if you need a silence, or Cheap Shot if you need a stun), then put up Slice and Dice (SnD). From there on, Mutilate to 4+ combo points (cp). Use Rupture at 4+cp if it's not up (to proc Venomous Wounds), otherwise hit Envenom at 4+cp. Envenom also refreshes your SnD, so if you see SnD about to drop, you might want to hit Envenom. When boss is at 35% health or below, use Backstab to build your combo points instead of Mutilate, assuming it is safe to stand behind the boss at the time.
Hit your Tricks of the Trade every 30 seconds on another rogue (if the favor is returned in order to get a 6 second damage bonus). Or hit it on a tank to pass on your threat temporarily. It costs 0 energy if it is glyphed.
Glyphs
Prime: I use Mutilate, Backstab, Rupture. There is a Vendetta glyph that is also an option.
Major: Tricks of the Trade, and then whatever you feel like
Minor: Pick Lock is love. So is Safe Fall.
Stats
For assassination, Agility (2.6EP) is the money stat. After that, the theorycrafter says that at T11 gear (which we are not at currently):
Yellow hit (?) > Spell hit (1.4) > Mastery (1.3) > Haste (1.2) > Expertise (1.1) > Crit (0.9)> White hit (0.75?)
Yellow hit is for Specials attacks and there is really no way to miss this. Spell hit is for poison hit cap, and since assassination rogues are very heavy in poison damage, this is important. White hit is for auto-attacks. I forgot all the numbers required, but at 2/3 Precision, the hit number I care about is 1332 (17% spell hit). Expertise is kinda meh because of the fact that we are spelly, and Crit lags pretty far behind that.
Cooldowns and tricks when you get heroism or some fight mechanic that allows you to do insane damage
- Vendetta: 20% damage increase for 30 seconds on a 2-minute CD
- Cold Blood: refunds 25 energy, and your next non-dot attack is a 100% crit. Also on a 2-minute CD
- Vanish: It's not just a oh-shit-dropping-all-threat kind of a button for assassination rogues. When we break stealth, we get the Overkill buff, which allows us to regenerate energy 30% faster for 20 seconds after breaking stealth. So time the use of Vanish smartly.
Other cool rogue utilities that I have on my bars, and yes I use ALL of these. I'm running out of room on my bars...
- Fan of Knives (our only AoE button) - note that you need Thrown weapon for this in the range slot, and you can also put poisons on it. I recommend Deadly, unless the fight calls for Crippling to slow.
- Recuperate - self heal-over-time based on combo points
- Redirect - transfer combo points from target A to target B, 1 minute CD
- Evasion, Combat Readiness for oh-shit tanking
- Cloak of Shadows to remove debuffs (glyphed version also reduce physical damage)
- Feint to reduce threat and reduce AoE taken
- Kick (glyphed version awards successful kickers by decreasing its cooldown, but penalizes you for missing it)
- Kidney Shot (stun!)
- Blind (good when soloing stuff)
- Shiv (mainly to get rid of enrage)
- Dismantle (disarm weapon)
- Deadly Throw (kinda meh but I use it sometimes)
- Eviscerate - put it on your bar, just in case you're not paying attention and you run out of poisons on your daggers. That'll be your backup finisher button, as Envenom won't work without poisons.
- Smoke Bomb (new spell! good for pulling a straggler caster into the group)
- Sprint (and also the worgen mini sprint)
And minimally on your stealth bar (and macro some of these with a Pick Pocket for good thieving)
- Sap
- Distract
- Disarm Trap (was good for the trash room before Marrowgar!)
- Tricks of the Trade
- Cheap Shot
- Garrote
- Mutilate
- Envenom
- Maybe Ambush, but I dont use it much.
- Recuperate (doesn't break stealth)
- Sprint (doesn't break stealth, but the worgen mini sprint does!)
Re: Rogue 4.0
Thank you thank you Daewen and Camyu for the treasure trove of information. 
So much to digest...
So much to digest...Re: Rogue 4.0
As a tank, these are the things I look for most in a rogue:
1) Survival - as we've said a dozen times before, DPS when you are dead is 0.
2) Smart interrupts and CC
3) Good Damage
4) Child-bearing hips
Keep that in mind - footwork comes first, followed by utility, followed by the gobs of damage I know you can do, followed by sexiness.
With that in mind, the greatest rogue in the guild is Kenpoka. Gnomes are, like, 50% hips.
1) Survival - as we've said a dozen times before, DPS when you are dead is 0.
2) Smart interrupts and CC
3) Good Damage
4) Child-bearing hips
Keep that in mind - footwork comes first, followed by utility, followed by the gobs of damage I know you can do, followed by sexiness.
With that in mind, the greatest rogue in the guild is Kenpoka. Gnomes are, like, 50% hips.
Re: Rogue 4.0
Thank you for the support. I appreciate it. 
To give some background, I raided 4 years in ZG, Kara, BT, SSC, and Naxx as a hunter (and a little Ulduar with you guys). Was kinda burnt out so took an extended vacation but now feel recharged. Would like to think I'm an old hand at 'don't stand in the green shit' ^^; that said, the change from ranged to melee is going to take some adjustment as I never had to worry about cleaves etc before. I appreciate your feedback. CoC last night demonstrated my UI was inefficient at showing debuffs, so I just added Sexy Cooldowns (thanks for the info, Dom). Also using ArcHud and Bartender4.
Left arc tracks health, energy, and combo points. Right arc mob HP. Small horizontal orange bar is SnD, small horizontal red bar is bleeds.
To give some background, I raided 4 years in ZG, Kara, BT, SSC, and Naxx as a hunter (and a little Ulduar with you guys). Was kinda burnt out so took an extended vacation but now feel recharged. Would like to think I'm an old hand at 'don't stand in the green shit' ^^; that said, the change from ranged to melee is going to take some adjustment as I never had to worry about cleaves etc before. I appreciate your feedback. CoC last night demonstrated my UI was inefficient at showing debuffs, so I just added Sexy Cooldowns (thanks for the info, Dom). Also using ArcHud and Bartender4.
Left arc tracks health, energy, and combo points. Right arc mob HP. Small horizontal orange bar is SnD, small horizontal red bar is bleeds.
Re: Rogue 4.0
So here's my rogue's UI... well all my dps characters have similar UI anyway. But here's to take a look... (and go ahead and click it to open up larger if you want)...
The basic UI is TukUI. It took me a while to get used to it but I like it now. The bars at the bottom give me visuals as to how long of a CD i have for a given spell. It's built into TukUI. So you see at the leftmost squares of my bars, Vendetta and Cold Blood are on their 2-minute cooldowns. The key things are the stuff just under the horde flag, which are Rogue Power Bars for durations of all relevant buffs and debuffs, and the circly graphic and the envenom icon were just events that I set up with my Power Aura to tell me when I need to hit Tricks, and when I have 4+ combo points to hit Envenom (or rupture - the Envenom icon simply is there to remind me that I should hit either or). I also have a skull graphic set for my Power Aura when the target's health reaches below 35% so I know I should be backstabbing. That spot is what I stare at for the most part when i dps.
The basic UI is TukUI. It took me a while to get used to it but I like it now. The bars at the bottom give me visuals as to how long of a CD i have for a given spell. It's built into TukUI. So you see at the leftmost squares of my bars, Vendetta and Cold Blood are on their 2-minute cooldowns. The key things are the stuff just under the horde flag, which are Rogue Power Bars for durations of all relevant buffs and debuffs, and the circly graphic and the envenom icon were just events that I set up with my Power Aura to tell me when I need to hit Tricks, and when I have 4+ combo points to hit Envenom (or rupture - the Envenom icon simply is there to remind me that I should hit either or). I also have a skull graphic set for my Power Aura when the target's health reaches below 35% so I know I should be backstabbing. That spot is what I stare at for the most part when i dps.
Re: Rogue 4.0
Post first raid thoughts.
Unhappy: Died in the first attempt, to fire. Took time to understand how this particular fire mechanic would be represented graphically. First thought hellfire was some warlock thing, then thought hellfire graphic _was_ the damage, rather than the fiery meteors of death that followed soon after. Spooked by friendly fire elemental too. Still getting used to ignoring DK effects and distinguishing those from enemy 'do not stand in this.'
Happy: The first was the only combat death the rest of the night. Placed low on overall damage taken.
Happy: Broke 10k dps w/ 25-raid buffs in greens despite <329 gear. Working on rep gear now.
Melee raiding is hard.
Unhappy: Died in the first attempt, to fire. Took time to understand how this particular fire mechanic would be represented graphically. First thought hellfire was some warlock thing, then thought hellfire graphic _was_ the damage, rather than the fiery meteors of death that followed soon after. Spooked by friendly fire elemental too. Still getting used to ignoring DK effects and distinguishing those from enemy 'do not stand in this.'
Happy: The first was the only combat death the rest of the night. Placed low on overall damage taken.
Happy: Broke 10k dps w/ 25-raid buffs in greens despite <329 gear. Working on rep gear now.
Melee raiding is hard.
Re: Rogue 4.0
That was my first time in that raid too, and I was at first also confused about the rings of pulsing fires on the ground. But once I realized I was taking damage from those, I learned to dance around them. All the ground effects are actually very confusing, like globes and circles of friendly yellows and reds intermixing with rings of orangey death. Normally I zoom my camera all the way out to see more of everything. This time, I actually had to zoom closely in just so I could see. The warlock purples vs the bad void zones also were very confusing at the trash pulls. Like Dom said before, getting the footwork down is the most important. Lets get you that epic belt made. Send me mats other than the orbs.