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Saerra | Terry wrote:I've been in a casual guild, and I've been in the hardest of the hardcore guilds (7 days a week 5 hours a night in Everquest).

Important things to keep in mind are that you can be casual without sacrificing progress. We raid 3 nights a week which no one complains about, that's a decent number. I've personally never liked DKP or Randoming, but I understand the use of both. This is a pretty fantastic guild in terms of the camaraderie amongst nearly all the members. It's all about finding a few little adjustments to "Don't be a dick" to ensure that the majority of members are enjoying themselves and WANTING to raid and log in.

Very well put. As we've all learned the fights and our own classes, the number of raid nights has actually shrunk to where we have our weekends to do whatever we want without having to use that night to beat Kel'Thuzad or whoever. People honestly enjoy raiding with each other, and we're looking to institute loot rules not as a restriction, but as a way of making sure that everyone feels like they're a part of it. The situation where the RNG gives one person 4 items and another person 0 may even out over time, but if we shift that even a little, to a 3 vs. 1 situation, then that person on the shorter end doesn't feel like there was any time wasted, and thinks "hey, I'll do this again on Thursday/Saturday/whatever." That's what we're trying to encourage, in terms of loot distribution, pull pacing, and even just what we say in raid chat versus what we say on TeamSpeak.

We're not trying to 'screw' anyone. We're trying to find the way that takes the least maintenance (we're Casual, after all) but feels rewarding to everyone without playing favorites (because even though we're Casual, that doesn't mean we can't do Progression). Right now, the sentiment is that we should stay with the current system with a few tweaks - let's hammer things out before growing pains become serious.

Byron wrote: sphie brings up another issue: I see the word "progression" being used, but this term is really being used as a euphemism. It doesn't take much reading between the lines to realize what is actually meant here is an "elitist clique", an "A-Team" that gets special treatment so they'll have the ability to "progress" through higher content and thus making lower raids "farm status" for everyone else to feed from. -Don't say it isn't true...the clique made itself well known as soon as Wrath opened...causing much unhappiness (I've no idea why, but I seem to be the one people /tell their gripes to).

I apologize for this; I mentioned the idea of having one group learn the fights and such, then bringing people along, because at the time (pre-WOTLK, I believe), we had a lot fewer people. But no where in there did I ever say that anyone would get preferential treatment for gear. I'm the one who's trying to come up with rules that spread the gear around the best, after all.

Byron wrote: We're looking to add all the drama of "progression" without having the actual commitment or skill level of players to go that far with it. That sounds like a plan to end the guild, not advance it. We're either a casual guild or a progression guild; Being a half-assed progression guild isn't a good option for anyone.

I would like to think many of us (self excluded) are very, very good players. The best? That's a term I prefer to not use, because everyone has a different definition of what "best" is. But definitely good enough to work our way through things as they come.

Well, if we want to absolutely minimize drama, the best way to do it is the same way as a PuG -- roll need if you think it's an upgrade, regardless of prior drops and main/alt/spec status. Eventually, the dice will even everything out. The simpler the system, the fewer opportunities to game it and the less likely we'll have hurt feelings (since it's not anybody's fault if the random number generator is against you).

That being said, I'm quite happy with the way things work now. I think we've achieved a nice balance between "progression" (main before alts, onspec before offspec), evening out loot (fewer previous loots = higher priority), and minimizing drama (no attendance rules, no preferential treatment for "A" team). In fact, I'm not quite sure what generated this spate of ill feeling.

Adam