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kyo wrote:It doesnt really matter what the other rules are, what it comes down to is rule 3.
3. Don't be a dick
There are people who abide by this and people who don't. Whether we count how much loot people get or we just rely on the RNG, if you dont respect rule 3 then there is no point. Perfect example was last night there was a neck or something that dropped that 2 hunters were interested in. They discussed it and determined it was a bigger upgrade for one of the hunters than the other, and it was passed to the one more in need. Another opposite example is a tier piece dropped, and someone made a big deal out of it and got it passed to them by a person with a higher roll just to stop them from complaining. It would have benefited both people and the raid as a whole so it shouldn't have mattered, thats why I agree with Bosar that we should just respect the RNG since all the drops benefit our raid. I don't care if I get a tier piece or if Devinoch or Dom get it since its going to help our group no matter who gets it. Most of the drops coming out of here are mostly slight upgrades anyways, the people who come on a consistent basis are here for raid progression and because they enjoy the challenge and the content. Bosar is one of the people who is here on a consistent basis because he enjoys it, and implying he is a loot whore is insulting.

Rule Three really is the most important one, and thankfully most people abide by it. But sometimes people don't, and that's one reason why I created the rule set as it is today.

I am of the belief that if I roll on something, and lose the roll, then that's fine. If the RNG says that someone doesn't get a particular item, that's how it goes. But I also think that everyone who comes on a run deserves to get at least something if it's at all possible.

In the situation above, with the tier token, if the person who won it hadn't gotten anything yet, and the person who complained had gotten something that run, then I would have said, "Unfortunately, you have already gotten something, perhaps next time." Preferably they wouldn't have complained about it, but with the rules in place, they would have hopefully abided by it.

The other reason I prefer spreading the wealth is because of the possibility (again, unlikely, but still) of one person getting all of the upgrades, and then for some reason not being able to make the next few raids (illness, etc.). I'm also a fan of everyone gaining power at roughly the same rate.

I understand Ian's points, but I strongly disagree with them. While the RNG is fair up to a point, I don't think it ends up being as fair as Ian (and I would guess others) does.

What's most important is that we DECIDE what the loot rules are and ABIDE by them all the time.

If tier drops are different from other drops, we have to be explicit about that before the first drop of the raid. We've sometimes done them as "free" rolls and sometimes not.

If you're only eligible if nobody is behind you in number of drops per week (run? day? individual raid?), then we have to actually track drops. We've sometimes done it per raid, sometimes per run, and sometimes per week across all raids.

I really don't care what rules we choose, but let's try to actually be clear what the rules are.

Adam

Ok Pocky, what's the point of the rule, i.e. who is it meant to help?

Is it intended to make sure that the consistent, ever present (hardcore) raiders get the drops that they want?

Or is it to make sure that the people who only attend raids once every blue moon get something?

I get the feeling that you think it benefits the people who almost never raid, but it doesn't. The people who get carried through by the more experienced raiders are going to get gear anyways, and honestly,they're probably the people who would be complaining about not getting a drop. I'm simply advocating the removal of an extraneous rule to streamline the loot process.

On the other hand, if I'm wrong about the point of the rule, and it's instead meant to benefit the veteran raiders, then why bother with a vague rule like that? Just come straight out and tell people that veteran/hardcore raiders have priority on all items, and that the casual raiders are going to get the leftovers. Casual raiders will still get loot, and the veterans won't even have to worry about losing upgrades to people that raid once a month.

Depending fully on the dice benefits the more casual raiders, and honestly doesn't affect the more hardcore raiders very much. It winds up being much more fair than the current rule, which strongly favors the more hardcore/veteran raiders.

Now, people keep saying that this is supposed to be a casual friendly guild, but you're advocating a non-casual friendly policy. Admittedly, you're trying to paint it as a casual friendly policy, and you may actually believe it's a casual friendly policy, but it's definitely not.

I wasn't going to respond to this thread because for some reason loot rules threads always bring out ... well, they can get emotional. And I was hoping this thread would just die and we would move on. But it hasn't.

So, first of all, regardless of what the topic is, please try to be civil to each other. If this is a Friends and Family guild, and it is, then let's at least try to talk to one another with civility and respect. This means not telling Bosar to go elsewhere if he doesn't agree with you Tony. If you disagree with someone about something, say so, but try not to get personal or mean. And 2) try to keep some perspective - this is a game, we are raiding 10-man content, most of the loot we are talking about isn't that great, it's not a huge deal at this point.

As far as the actual topic of this thread goes, I don't really care. I think both sides ( --just use RNG, and --use RNG but only after a simple layer of eligibility has been passed ) make sense. Neither of them are *way* more reasonable than the other. Both sides will be able to come up with hypothetical situations that may occur that would make their side seem more reasonable or fair.

The one thing that Pocky's system has in its favor is this: he's right that sometimes the RNG is really "unfair" to someone for extended periods of time and sometimes a person gets frustrated and either quits, takes some time off, or in other words, stops playing as much. Like Lemeeng, for example. There were other reasons why he's stopped playing, but I think part of it was because he didn't get any drops for a while. So Pocky's system can help that situation. (But it can't help that much when there are 5 rogues on a run - nothing can help then!)

Reiss' system (or just RNG) would help different people in a different situation. People won't "save" their rolls because they want something else at the end. The raid will move faster. If the same people raid the same amount and shows up every week, then it'll all "work out" over time and in short order, so it really is "fair" over the course of, say, a month or whatever.

In the end, the only way to judge these two competing loot rules is by going through all the various types of situations our guild goes through (do we have new players a lot, how many of each class do we have, what drops are left, whom will they help, etc etc). Neither of them is more theoretically fair and determining which is more pragmatically fair would be a pain in the old asshole.

And all for what? Nothing, really. A slight modification to a system that may or may not give you a slightly better chance at a slightly better virtual piece of armor or weapon.

I don't really have a "side" I'm trying to support, obviously, but if you need my vote or whatever, I would say a) that whatever it is, it should obviously be consistent, and b) I have a slight preference for RNG-based rolling for Ulduar-10, just because it's easier, not because it's "better". And to be honest, I think that's what we've *been* doing in Ulduar 10 anyway. So it's all kinda funny if you think about it.

The system I created was made for one reason: to try to make sure everyone got at least one item during a week's raiding. It was not meant to help any particular group of people.

My main concern was the RNG ending up giving all of the loot (or after a while, all of the major upgrades) on a run to one person. That's the main reason I came up with it.

I just want everyone to walk away after a week of Naxx/Ulduar/whatever with a piece of loot if it's at all possible. If nothing drops, of course, then that's one thing. And if nothing that's an upgrade drops, that's just how it goes. But if more items drop than people who can use them, and someone gets nothing, I feel bad for them.

In the end, I made this system because I wanted everyone to get loot and be happy. That's all. ^_^;

I know Pocky. And thanks for thinking about the guild as a whole for all of us.

Like I said, I don't think your system is unfair. It's eminently fair. You'd like to see people share loot. And if they don't, then you'd like a system in place to kinda remind them to do so.

The thing is, is that the 1-drop-per-person rule isn't inherently more fair than the basic RNG loot system per se. Certain situations exist whereby that system would still rub most people the wrong way (e.g., Bosar's been waiting for one specific drop for 3 weeks, 1 guy comes in out of nowhere, doesn't get anything til the last tier drop and rolls on it and beats Bosar - most people would think this isn't "fair")

Again, like I said, I really don't see either system as being better, but for expediency's sake I think RNG is the best thing *for Ulduar 10*. Once we start Ulduar 25, I would think a good argument could be made for Pocky's system, just because, yes, I do think people tend to come back more often, raid more often, when they get *something* on a run, even if that entails all the negatives that may come to pass with Pocky's system (e.g., some people may "save" their rolls and all that).

At any rate, I'm cool with whatever system is decided upon. I truly am. And I hope this doesn't degenerate into something weird. Let's try, whatever the system, to pass on stuff that are side-grades for us, but upgrades for others, and on things that are off-spec for us but on-spec for others, etc. I think if we truly try not to be dicks, most rolls will be between only a couple people, and if so, no one's really losing.