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To Byron:

a) I agree with pretty much everything you're saying, but
b) you're not following you're own logic

Eventually the dice makes everything fair *over time* (your argument), so why would you continue to get more items from pugs than guild runs? You got 2 items last week and 3 items on Tuesday this week (some of which may not have been healy-specific, but still). Keep rolling with the Schadenfreuders and whatever string of bad luck you think you've had will work out over time. And it seems like it's starting to, amiright? (And they will continue to work as long as we don't start fuddling with all these +5/-5 ad hoc rules that is).

I think you nailed it, Kevin. Good analysis of the loot distribution too.

It might be sufficient just to keep the prior weeks' loot lists for reference.

Logos wrote:Eventually the dice makes everything fair *over time* (your argument), so why would you continue to get more items from pugs than guild runs?

Mostly for a different issues: Pugs don't tend to wimp out after a wing or two and finish up on a day I can't raid, leaving me saved to an instance I've only 1/4th or so cleared (this is largely why I stopped doing guild kara for example). Additionally pugs don't tend to roll with five priests and another five mages. I understand, we're casual and we take what we can get in a run, but that doesn't change the math.

You got 2 items last week

I don't personally count defaulted +hit gear. But I'm more careful now, having learned that picking up an off spec piece counts as "got something" later for main spec (which happened that run). This rightly is an extension of the, "passing on upgrades so as to be able to roll later" problem. But the only way to fix it is to add yet another special case rule to keep track of (ok, so off spec doesn't count as a man spec "got something", but then it should probably count on a separate "off spec got something" list...yah, that'll be fun to keep track of).

and 3 items on Tuesday this week (some of which may not have been healy-specific, but still).

This week was all healy. So far as I can tell it's the first on-spec wrath gear I've gotten from a guild run.

Keep rolling with the Schadenfreuders and whatever string of bad luck you think you've had will work out over time.

It can't, it's not possible; Our current system doesn't really allow for good luck streaks unless by "good luck" you mean "everyone else in the run has passed already, take it or we shard it". Your good luck streak ends after your very first item. After that it's all table scraps. My good luck Tuesday was:

1 lucky roll
1 lucky default (by everyone...all main spec and all off spec)
1 lucky ninja (Jenny actually won the roll, but it was missed the confusion and given to me)

And a rather stressful, annoying run with lots of needless trash deaths as people sorted out who could or couldn't roll and the rest of the group went off to pull the next trash they couldn't handle.

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Yes, the current system is flawed, but not so critically that I can't live with it.

These "DKP Lite" suggestions however, are all tragically flawed and unworkable.

Gotta agree with Byron and Kevin here. Keep it more simple. I personally agree more with Byron in the 1 drop per run rule, let the dice decide instead, but our current 1 drop per week until everyone else gets something is not the end of the world. Speaking from experience, the proposed new rule would have benefited me this week. But I am okay with everyone rolling against me for loot. I'm not sure waiting for a specific drop makes you more eligible for that drop.

Question: how DO we decide rule changes anyway? majority vote? raid leaders decides? guildmaster and founders decide? regular raiders vote? hmm...

Based on what many people are saying, I am withdrawing this suggestion for now.

To clarify something, the ideas for the current rules (not this addendum) were actually in the works well before the run that Byron mentioned. They were not created because of it.

There is one really good reason to stay totally with the dice rolls and no restrictions: All the drama can be blamed on the RNG, rather than on whoever in the guild put in restrictions.

fhatee wrote:Question: how DO we decide rule changes anyway? majority vote? raid leaders decides? guildmaster and founders decide? regular raiders vote? hmm...

I would prefer majority vote, but we have so many people who abstain...

Well, there IS a poll option in phpBB that we can use for this.

My personal vote is to keep it simple - let's keep the "people who haven't gotten loot yet have priority" rule - but how about we make it so that we don't keep track past zero? That way, people would be more free to roll on upgrades, and Pocky would spend less time staring at spreadsheets and more time chain pulling stuff so we can clear spider wing faster..

Texaporte wrote:

fhatee wrote:Question: how DO we decide rule changes anyway? majority vote? raid leaders decides? guildmaster and founders decide? regular raiders vote? hmm...

I would prefer majority vote, but we have so many people who abstain...

Well, there IS a poll option in phpBB that we can use for this.

My personal vote is to keep it simple - let's keep the "people who haven't gotten loot yet have priority" rule - but how about we make it so that we don't keep track past zero? That way, people would be more free to roll on upgrades, and Pocky would spend less time staring at spreadsheets and more time chain pulling stuff so we can clear spider wing faster..

I don't want to seem like I'm in favor of more procedural rules and crap, but I have some ideas here.

First is simply the method of proposing, seconding, and comparing yea's and nay's. So, for this loot rule addendum, it has been proposed, and debated, but it does look like it's being withdrawn before the vote. But in the future, we might want decisions seconded before put to vote/readycheck/whatnot.

Second, given the abstention rate, I heard of a novel practice this week, where silence implies consent. Mostly, it is to encourage participation. So it would require objections (the nay's) to outnumber consent (yea's) to be defeated.

But hey, take it with some salt, because the software product of the company I work for takes text describing a process and makes flowchart diagrams and test case lists, for business processes and software development. ^_^

Finally, I am all in favor of more chainpulling and faster clears. To that end, maybe what we need is a faster loot spreadsheet! ^_~

Daewen wrote:Finally, I am all in favor of more chainpulling and faster clears. To that end, maybe what we need is a faster loot spreadsheet! ^_~

I have some ideas that will make it easier to say who is eligible for a roll. I'll try them out tonight if I can.

Mrm, we're back to this again I see. As I see it though, I think people are confusing the purpose of this (any) loot system versus direction the guild wants to go.

We've gotten to the crossroads and have been slogging through without picking a direction. Naxx is so easy that we can basically coast through while carrying half of the raid who aren't even heroic geared. It's not going to last.

There are 2 possible directions that Schad can go. The first is the casual route. We're actually already going that direction, where we're rolling for loot without discrimination. Where here the main focus is to have fun and get everyone their shiny purples without any consideration of any other factors. Which is perfectly fine if you're satisfied with this. Ofcourse any loot method will seem tragically flawed and unworkable if your preconceived notion of a raid is to just get everyone the "Epic" achievement.

There is a great danger of stagnation with this direction, and it's already very subtly rearing its head in the form of 10 man malygos. For those of us who have attempted malygos, we know how difficult it can be and it can only be won with people at the top of their game. The unfortunate reality of this encounter is that if we want to win, we have to turn people away who either can't play their class or aren't geared enough. Malygos is probably about 2x-3x harder than anything in Naxx.


What Pocky is trying to do is set us up to go the other direction, towards progression. He realizes that there's an insurmountable amount of inertia when it comes to our current loot system. But I think there needs to be something done if the guild as a whole wants to progress through future content. Pocky has done a lot to try and take us to the direction of progression, but he's falling short a bit in his presentation of the true purpose. The 'fairness' aspect is what's being picked apart, but that's only a piece of progression. What I'm getting at, is that if we want to win and progress, something needs to be done to make sure that the people who show up to raids with their consumables and know their class inside out and do their best to make sure we win, are the ones that get justly rewarded for their effort.

And yes Byron, this did start because of Sherrman. But it also didn't end with Sherrman because it kept happening. You still don't understand why people don't want that to happen. How does it help the guild as a whole if your alt, or if ANYONE's alt, gets loot over a main? It's doesn't. It's as if that loot that dropped never even existed. It's the same thing if loot goes to an offspec over a mainspec, or if loot goes to someone who only rarely shows up the raid. It's basically as if that loot was wasted or sharded. Sure you're happy that your alt got something, but how does that help everyone else? It doesn't. But if that tank loot went to a tank that shows up day in and day out, researches their class outside of the game, eats repair bills day after day to make sure that the guild moves forward, it helps the guild a hell of a lot. Who are you raiding for? Are you raiding for your alts? Or are you raiding for the guild so that we can do tougher content? If things continue as they do currently, raid progression will be stalled at best, and at worst, raid progression will hit a wall and stop.


I'm suggesting that Schad needs to decide where it wants to go otherwise this debate will never end. People seem pretty content with how things are going. Which is fine, because that's how things have always been. I realize I'm in a minority with my thinking. But I see a disconnect between the destination and path. We all know where the destination is, but I don't think we're taking the right road if we want to get there.