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Reiss wrote:

Pocky wrote: Again, while it's true that the chance is there that any given item can and will drop again, the question is when. We've had people who didn't win the roll on an upgrade, and then it didn't appear again for three months. That's a fairly long time to have to wait and then potentially lose.

And how does locking people out of rolling on an upgrade remedy this sort of situation?

Free roll situation: 3 people need an item, 3 people roll, one of them wins, 2 people still need that item.

Loot limit situation: 3 people need an item, one is ineligible, 2 people roll, one wins, 2 people still need that item.

My question is this: is it fair for someone who has received an item during a run to get something else when the other people who can use the item have not yet? Is it fair for one person to potentially get every item that they are eligible for when the other people who are eligible do not?

I'd like to hear everyone's opinions on this.

Reiss wrote: And how does locking people out of rolling on an upgrade remedy this sort of situation?

Free roll situation: 3 people need an item, 3 people roll, one of them wins, 2 people still need that item.

Loot limit situation: 3 people need an item, one is ineligible, 2 people roll, one wins, 2 people still need that item.

This is very spurious logic. You're not taking into account an entire run (14 bosses in Ulduar), an entire week of raiding, nor an entire raid of 10 people.

Taking one situation out of context and thinking it equates to "this is just as fair" doesn't work.

Reiss wrote:

Pocky wrote: Again, while it's true that the chance is there that any given item can and will drop again, the question is when. We've had people who didn't win the roll on an upgrade, and then it didn't appear again for three months. That's a fairly long time to have to wait and then potentially lose.

And how does locking people out of rolling on an upgrade remedy this sort of situation?

Free roll situation: 3 people need an item, 3 people roll, one of them wins, 2 people still need that item.

Loot limit situation: 3 people need an item, one is ineligible, 2 people roll, one wins, 2 people still need that item.

I should have been more specific about the situation, sorry about that. Trying to do too many things at once.

Players A, B, and C are all casters. Player A has been to every raid, B has been there most of the time, and C is new.

A is hoping for a certain ring to drop off of the last boss. B has a few pieces to upgrade here and there, and C can use a lot of potential drops.

By the time they get to the last boss, A has gotten nothing (which is the same as the past month or so), B has received one upgrade (and a fairly substantial one at that), and C has gotten five. The last boss falls to the floor, and drops the ring that A has been hoping for.

Is it fair to player A for players B and C to roll on the ring?

If you were player A, how would you feel?

Pocky wrote:

Reiss wrote:

Pocky wrote: Again, while it's true that the chance is there that any given item can and will drop again, the question is when. We've had people who didn't win the roll on an upgrade, and then it didn't appear again for three months. That's a fairly long time to have to wait and then potentially lose.

And how does locking people out of rolling on an upgrade remedy this sort of situation?

Free roll situation: 3 people need an item, 3 people roll, one of them wins, 2 people still need that item.

Loot limit situation: 3 people need an item, one is ineligible, 2 people roll, one wins, 2 people still need that item.

I should have been more specific about the situation, sorry about that. Trying to do too many things at once.

Players A, B, and C are all casters. Player A has been to every raid, B has been there most of the time, and C is new.

A is hoping for a certain ring to drop off of the last boss. B has a few pieces to upgrade here and there, and C can use a lot of potential drops.

By the time they get to the last boss, A has gotten nothing (which is the same as the past month or so), B has received one upgrade (and a fairly substantial one at that), and C has gotten five. The last boss falls to the floor, and drops the ring that A has been hoping for.

Is it fair to player A for players B and C to roll on the ring?

If you were player A, how would you feel?

I'd let everyone roll on the ring. Now, I might feel a little differently if player C comes to a raid once every 2 months or something and essentially wastes the ring, instead of being a newer raider who plans on attending reasonably often, but I'd absolutely have no problem with player B rolling. Everybody needs the ring to an equal, or at least roughly equal degree, and as long as the guild is getting decent use out of it, I'm happy with any outcome.

Bosar reply to my damn PM!

Daewen wrote:

Reiss wrote: And how does locking people out of rolling on an upgrade remedy this sort of situation?

Free roll situation: 3 people need an item, 3 people roll, one of them wins, 2 people still need that item.

Loot limit situation: 3 people need an item, one is ineligible, 2 people roll, one wins, 2 people still need that item.

This is very spurious logic. You're not taking into account an entire run (14 bosses in Ulduar), an entire week of raiding, nor an entire raid of 10 people.

Taking one situation out of context and thinking it equates to "this is just as fair" doesn't work.

Why should I need to take into account the entire run, a week of raiding (how is this different from an entire run when all we do is 1 raid), or 10 people?

The argument that has been presented for loot limits is, in essence, that it's not fair that someone lose the roll on an item that they need, right?

So, let's say both Dengeki and I are wearing Wraith Strike. A hypothetical weapon that's an absolute upgrade (all the same stats with higher values) drops. Clearly we both need the item equally, since we'll both derive a benefit from it.

Now, Dengeki has already won an item this run, does that mean that he magically no longer needs this weapon? Or that my need is now significantly more than his? No, I don't think so.

Regardless of the roll outcome, one of us will still need the weapon. Why should one of us have priority simply because the other has already looted an item?

Will I be sad if I lose the roll? Probably, but no more sad than if Dengeki hadn't already won an item.

No. We decided that as a casual guild, we were not going to track attendance, exclude someone from raid, or make them pass loot because they couldn't show up often.

Look, let's go back to the very basics of it:

#1: Share the wealth.
You want to change the system so that anyone can roll on anything, and that's going to have some people getting more loot than others. So that doesn't work. We have the loot rules in place to spell it out for people how to share the wealth. We didn't even have a problem with it until the end of BC and LK- before, people would just pass to someone else because they had gotten something and wanted to share it with someone else. Wanting to be able to roll as many times as you want in a night/week breaks this rule.

This is not a hardcore progression guild. This is a Friends and Family guild. People were invited to it to get away from the drama inherent in hardcore guilds- bashing people for their place on the damage meters, arguing over loot, cheating the dkp system. We run these raids because we'd rather play with people we know and like than to compete with strangers over the spoils of high-stress progression.

If fairly distributing the loot is really that frustrating to you, go elsewhere.

It doesnt really matter what the other rules are, what it comes down to is rule 3.
3. Don't be a dick
There are people who abide by this and people who don't. Whether we count how much loot people get or we just rely on the RNG, if you dont respect rule 3 then there is no point. Perfect example was last night there was a neck or something that dropped that 2 hunters were interested in. They discussed it and determined it was a bigger upgrade for one of the hunters than the other, and it was passed to the one more in need. Another opposite example is a tier piece dropped, and someone made a big deal out of it and got it passed to them by a person with a higher roll just to stop them from complaining. It would have benefited both people and the raid as a whole so it shouldn't have mattered, thats why I agree with Bosar that we should just respect the RNG since all the drops benefit our raid. I don't care if I get a tier piece or if Devinoch or Dom get it since its going to help our group no matter who gets it. Most of the drops coming out of here are mostly slight upgrades anyways, the people who come on a consistent basis are here for raid progression and because they enjoy the challenge and the content. Bosar is one of the people who is here on a consistent basis because he enjoys it, and implying he is a loot whore is insulting.

Then I see no reason to change the rules.

Daewen wrote:No. We decided that as a casual guild, we were not going to track attendance, exclude someone from raid, or make them pass loot because they couldn't show up often.

Look, let's go back to the very basics of it:

#1: Share the wealth.
You want to change the system so that anyone can roll on anything, and that's going to have some people getting more loot than others. So that doesn't work. We have the loot rules in place to spell it out for people how to share the wealth. We didn't even have a problem with it until the end of BC and LK- before, people would just pass to someone else because they had gotten something and wanted to share it with someone else. Wanting to be able to roll as many times as you want in a night/week breaks this rule.

This is not a hardcore progression guild. This is a Friends and Family guild. People were invited to it to get away from the drama inherent in hardcore guilds- bashing people for their place on the damage meters, arguing over loot, cheating the dkp system. We run these raids because we'd rather play with people we know and like than to compete with strangers over the spoils of high-stress progression.

If fairly distributing the loot is really that frustrating to you, go elsewhere.

Tony, I'm not sure if you realize this, but I'm probably one of the people that benefits the most from a loot limit, since I attend almost every raid, I have a very high overall gear quality level, and I happily pass on items that I don't think will provide enough of an upgrade to me. If I were the loot whore you're trying to paint me as, would I be advocating a system that gives the people who are taking the upgrades I've already gotten an equal shot at the items we both need? Would I tell people who have already recieved loot who beat me for a tier piece that I want to take the item because they won the roll?

I also never said this was a hardcore progression guild. If I thought we were a super hardcore progression guild, I'd be recommending a loot council to assign loot to our best players and our most consistent raiders. But we're not, and I'm not.