Loot Rule Proposals

[Logos]

True of hunters as well. We get +5% pet damage (and with the pet nerfs we're probably talking about 50dps, though may change) and shoot 20% faster while in Viper mode, which almost never happens in 25-mans. All in all, useless.

We can get really granular with our point systems and really granular with our loot priority table (e.g., Andy's list of 7 scenarios, which nicely sums up the various categories), but it'd be nice to keep it simple. Roll, Pass, Default. We *could* add a new option: "Slight Upgrade" which would add .5 points to to someone's spreadsheet, and their roll priority would be behind regular /rollers but ahead of /defaulters, or things along that nature, but what the hell - we gotta stop somewhere

[Byron]

True of hunters as well. We get +5% pet damage (and with the pet nerfs we're probably talking about 50dps, though may change) and shoot 20% faster while in Viper mode, which almost never happens in 25-mans. All in all, useless.

Yah... I wish they'd actually make set bonuses an actual bonus. But the set effects instead are factored into the item level math, meaning useless or not they push useful stats off the item. That's not a bonus, that's just a different itemization. Priest's 2 piece set effect is decent (1 extra mending bounce, a bit situational), but the 4 piece is 5% cheaper greater heals...a very rare spell to ever cast in a raid (your target is dead or healed by someone else by the time it lands). g-heal is best used with Inner Fire/Clearcasting and stop casting to game the 5 second rule...but in those conditions it's a mana free spell anyway. IIRC the DPS set effects are useful at least.

We can get really granular with our point systems and really granular with our loot priority table (e.g., Andy's list of 7 scenarios, which nicely sums up the various categories), but it'd be nice to keep it simple. Roll, Pass, Default. We *could* add a new option: "Slight Upgrade" which would add .5 points to to someone's spreadsheet, and their roll priority would be behind regular /rollers but ahead of /defaulters, or things along that nature, but what the hell - we gotta stop somewhere

Yah, at some point down this road we'll end up with that "Loot Council" that someone mentioned in another thread.

[Daewen]

I feel that going too in-depth into methods for /rolling and spreadsheet tracking are a separate topic, and run counter to the goal of making things faster and simpler.

But it has pointed out a common theme to me: Anytime there's a way to get something with a "penalty", and a way to get it without one, people will try to game the system, skew the spreadsheet, any which way to get it without penalty. This is loot-whoring. This is not "spread the wealth." This is "I want the biggest upgrades in the shortest time, the least amount of effort." This is a big problem, because soon as someone feels they don't need much more from raiding, they drop out. And the rest of the guild suffers because we're short people again, until the next instance opens, and then they show up again.

It totally ignores what has been said before, though maybe we havn't thought fully explained how it's true: In the long run, it all evens out and everyone gets loot. I don't actually intend to show any kind of mathematical proof how it's true. But gaming the system to get your loot and bail, is being a dick.

If people like playing, enjoy having fun with friends, it's sooo much easier to just show up, kick ass all around, and loot keeps dropping, and eventually, we're doing it mostly for fun, that maybe finally someday that one piece of rare loot will finally drop. Or drop again, for someone else.

This is why keeping the loot rules simple and easy should be the goal. We give a little priority to those who havn't gotten something that week, put mains first, let the dice decide who gets loot, and move on. It really should be that simple.

[Byron]

It totally ignores what has been said before, though maybe we havn't thought fully explained how it's true: In the long run, it all evens out and everyone gets loot.

Think about it this way: The way the dungeons are setup the "consolation prize loot" drops first in the run, while the real prized loot drops at the end. With this "got something" penalty based loot system, by taking a consolation prize early you are explicitly opting out of any possible chance at the real prizes that likely will drop later in the run.

Is it really fair to call someone a dick for not deliberately opting out of the dungeon's most prized drops?

[Reiss]

Rolling priority to be similar to Dom's binary 0/1 system. We would still track how many items people have gotten, and those who have received least loot would get first rolls, and if they pass, all the others would get to roll- rather than going to those people who have gotten 2 pieces, then 3 pieces, then 5 pieces, then onto the off-spec people. Pros: less time spent figuring who's next priority to roll. Cons: sacrifices a bit of the perfect fairness of priority ordering for speed.

I dislike any sort of priority system like this because it tends to lead to letting upgrades rot/get sharded simply because people wind up holding out for the chance at better loot later in the raid. In addition, it encourages people who have gotten loot to skip later raids/leave early because they know they're not going to get anything, as well as encouraging people who really want something that drops later in the raid to just not show up on days that we're not doing that content.

If you're going to impose a numerical limit on loot (which this effectively does), I'd recommend a larger number. Even 2 or 3 items gives people breathing room, so they can still hold out for their ideal drop, while making sure that people do receive upgrades, and keep coming to raids.

Of course, I still strongly recommend no set loot limit, but that requires people to be reasonable, and not loot whores. In the end, the loot will all even out as long as we keep clearing content.

[Reiss]

But it has pointed out a common theme to me: Anytime there's a way to get something with a "penalty", and a way to get it without one, people will try to game the system, skew the spreadsheet, any which way to get it without penalty. This is loot-whoring. This is not "spread the wealth." This is "I want the biggest upgrades in the shortest time, the least amount of effort." This is a big problem, because soon as someone feels they don't need much more from raiding, they drop out. And the rest of the guild suffers because we're short people again, until the next instance opens, and then they show up again.

Anybody who's getting all their loot and then bailing probably shouldn't even be attending raids (with this guild at least) in the first place. Has that been a common problem?

[Reiss]

It totally ignores what has been said before, though maybe we havn't thought fully explained how it's true: In the long run, it all evens out and everyone gets loot.

Think about it this way: The way the dungeons are setup the "consolation prize loot" drops first in the run, while the real prized loot drops at the end. With this "got something" penalty based loot system, by taking a consolation prize early you are explicitly opting out of any possible chance at the real prizes that likely will drop later in the run.

Is it really fair to call someone a dick for not deliberately opting out of the dungeon's most prized drops?

This is in fact the very reason there shouldn't be a strict priority system at all.




WOOO, triple post! <_<

[Chamomile]

If you get rid of the priority system then you're going to get hard feelings between players.

For example: Member A has nearly a full set of really good equipment but still needs some slots filled. Member B has a couple good pieces but is mostly outfitted with instance blues and purples. During a raid, Member B rolls on and wins two upgrades, then later in that same raid an item desired by both Member A and Member B drops. Member A and Member B both roll and Member B wins. Member A sees no other desirable drops for the remainder of the raid.

As an opinion on the idea of website provided lists as to what class / spec a specific item is built for... I don't like this either. In the end, all these lists and guides showing who benefits most by these items are all opinions. Opinions can be wrong. You shouldn't limit someone's options for building their class because someone else says that paladins don't need MP5 as much as stamina or priests don't need spell hit.

[Daewen]

As an opinion on the idea of website provided lists as to what class / spec a specific item is built for... I don't like this either. In the end, all these lists and guides showing who benefits most by these items are all opinions. Opinions can be wrong. You shouldn't limit someone's options for building their class because someone else says that paladins don't need MP5 as much as stamina or priests don't need spell hit.

We already do though, except it's only been up to the loot master to say, "s.priests, mages, warlocks may roll on this."
Then someone chimes in, "only arcane-spec mages, which I am the only one!"
And then it gets assigned, and someone follows, "why not elemental shaman? it's not a piece of mail."
"oops, sorry, hadn't thought of that," goes the loot master.
And then, next wing or next week, same item drops, and it comes out "arcane mages, warlocks, and elemental shaman may-"
"But wait, what about s.priests?"
"Hey this is an upgrade for all mages, I changed spec!"

All of the above have happened. This is why we need a list. The wow-loot lists happen to be just an example. We can always make them more all-inclusive.

I personally have had the opinion that if it has spell power on it, let all casters roll, and those that know it's great for them will roll and those that don't like the piece won't. But then you get all the same arguments above.

[Daewen]

By the way, peeps, if people think that the loot rules as-is are "fair enough", just not "fast enough", we can focus on just improving the proceedures involved, whatever mechanics of getting rolls to the loot master, loot to players, and happiness should make its way all around. The suggestions I've presented would have changed rules, yes, but the goal of speeding things up is mostly the same.

To that end, what ideas for speeding things up do people like and dislike so far? Long explanations not necessary, gut intuition is fine too. And, this is just about the process of rolling- not how we move from loot to trash in raid. That's a different strategy discussion, imo. =)