nailbat.us

To clarify, I do believe the points would persist, and be gained at the end of a raid cycle.

But, this does bring up two things: First, almost any system will have some flaw that could be made unfair for someone in some situation. Second, though our rules say to spread the wealth, we have no positive reinforcement for passing loot onto someone else. Maybe we need to consider that too.

Though really, what it comes down to, is that if everyone were generous and selfless, we wouldn't need more systems and rules. Keeping track of how many things people have won in a week is mostly just because it's hard to remember that stuff over a 7-day period with 25+ people. Last year, with just 10 of us doing ZA and Kara, we could easily go, "I already got something, have you? yeah? ok then I'll roll." It's not so easy, now.

We're trying to keep it more fair, but really let's look at priorities: First, we're raiding with friends, not with random puggers, not in a hardcore environment where you suffer the stress of dealing with some raid leader's verbal abuse in order to maybe be allowed to bid on the loot. Second, we're successful, highly successful, there are a lot of guilds out there that we've seen more content of in this game, and had fun beating it. Finally, loot happens. You might not get it when it first drops, you might not get it for a month, and ask your guildies how long they waited for certain things in the past to come into their posession- point is, loot is a reward of the game, but it's not the point of playing the game.

*applauds tony* cheers man.

Please note that this is a suggestion, and is still in the working-out phase.

charline wrote:*applauds tony* cheers man.

Oh, stop that, you! Everyone knows full well that if I said the same thing over TS, they'd remember what an asshole I am.

Pocky wrote:Please note that this is a suggestion, and is still in the working-out phase.

Definitely, sorry to steal the spotlight much with long posts, but I'm having the slow day at work so I have more time to type up replies.

But yeah, there is an issue identified with the current loot-tracking system, we all know about it, we want to do something about it to make it fair. Fairer. Fairerer. More better.

Camyu wrote: So say if I attended every day of the raid but have to pass of all the gear that I'm eligible because I have better gear. Using Dengeki's proposed minor tweak, I would have stayed at state +0. Now let's say finally a piece of upgrade drops for me. Now I'm at a disadvantage for being at state +0, even though I've attended every day, because someone happens to be at state +1 or higher, and they get the item. In this case, I would never be able to get anything. How is it fair then? Why am I even raiding if I'll never be able to get just the 1 thing I need?

Also, will the points carry from each raid period to the next, or does it get cleared once Tuesday comes along? Or maybe will X points expire if you don't use them for Y days...?

In any case, not sure if a rigid point system is gonna work for us just yet.

First of all, since we aren't trying to establish a long term DKP style system, I don't think you should ever be able to go to a state higher than +1. The reason why I sugested my part is to prevent people from passing on a whole bunch of upgrades solely for the purpose of collecting that +1 at the end of the week. Any system that encourages people to pass on upgrades is not of a benefit to the guild.

*shrug* I have most all the issues mentioned and then some.

-Tunaka's lost almost all the real rolls she's had (bad roll luck).
-I also have issues with RL schedules jiving with raid times (can't attend most guild raids).
-I've had loot defaulted to me (including +hit gear) and that has counted as my "got something"...forcing me to pass on the actual healing gear that drops later in the run (wtf bs).
-I've had people roll against me to upgrade better 200 epic gear to down/side grade 213 piece...while I /cry at my 160 level blue piece (bitter and resentful).

Most all my better gear is from pugs because of this. The same was largely true in BC as well. I've just had much better loot luck with pug raids then guild. And less drama. Yes, less, drastically so. Mostly because they all obey the law of the dice: "If you win the roll, you get the item." Sure, everyone will get a good or bad streak now and then, but it really does all even out in the end. Only those that fail at math think otherwise.

You know what doesn't even out in the end? Fucking with the dice, gaming them with crazy point/got something already/whatever bs. All you do is force people who've had a bad streak (nothing for a few runs) to get cock blocked at 1 item in a run.

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All of this nonsense started back at the end of BC when Sherrman (who'd never gotten jack in a run before, an alt of Tunaka that hadn't gotten jack from a guild run in ages), won two items in a row in TK. That's all that was needed to start down this crazy loot roll DKP drama BS. But you know what? The dice were right then and the dice are right now. Whine all you like, but none of you have ever proposed anything that has been anything but less fair, more confusing, and more drama filled then /roll.

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Our problem isn't that our current system is too simple and needs some +/- 5 point crazy.

Our problem is that our current system is too complex.

The best answer. The only actually fair answer (in every single use case!). Is to bring back /roll

</rant>

(PS: I'm not sure why I care, I have no dog in this race: I fully expect whatever is decided that the vast majority of my loot will continue to come from pugs as it always has. If I was only after loot I'd never join guild runs).

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I haven't started raiding with you guys yet, but I agree with Byron here, just /roll for the gear (limiting rolls to main spec, then off spec, etc). It's easier in the long run, and since in a single Naxx25 clear you get more than 50 pieces of loot. If you're going to put any type of restrictions on quantity of loot, make those restrictions for certain classes of gear: 1 Tier piece, 1 weapon, 1 pair of gloves etc.

My biggest issue with the current system is that it encourages people to pass on gear that would be an upgrade. Now, if they're passing on 213 gear while in 200 epics, so that somebody who contributes but isn't geared can get a bigger upgrade, that's one thing. But if it's an equal upgrade to everybody it's available for, then encouraging people to pass on THIS gear so that they might get a better upgrade later is not ideal, in my mind. Same problem with DKP. People hoard points, so that they can get the one drop they actually want, and upgrades are left to rot in the meantime.

That said, maybe I'm not understanding the current system, and they'll still get their upgrades. I'm not too clear on what happens to loot after x eligible people don't want to use their roll. But I think just using /roll with a little bit of "don't be a dick" should be an excellent system, if we can abide by it. Clearly, if somebody's won three minor upgrades in a run over people who would get more use out of it, that's not ideal. But so is people not getting gear that would be useful, because they don't want to lose their chance to roll on something else.

I don't really have a suggestion here, but I wanted to make my point of view known.

Before everyone gets all complicated with new systems of loot logic, allow me to point out the obvious. The new system is trying to take care of a specific type of occurrence - someone getting a string of bad luck rolls over the course of multiple weeks of raiding. The only justification for making our system more complicated than it is right now is for this potentiality.

Last week 65 epics dropped off our Naxx run and our Sarth clear (not including the demon bag and bag of spoils), including 11 T7.5 items. Leaving "defaults" alone for the moment, one person received 6 items, 2 people got 4, most got 3 or 2 items, 5 got 1, and 2 received nothing. 3 of the 5 who only received 1 item were, surprise, Rogues. The 2 people who received nothing are among the best geared in the guild (both having 4 T7 or T7.5 items), so that's not a huge surprise. So the only way for someone to get this unlucky, over the course of not just 1 week but multiple weeks, is if their class was disproportionally represented by an extreme degree OR get extremely unlucky OR you're already geared. I haven't done the math, but I'm guessing we'd probably have to have 6 of the same class on our run for this to occur over the coarse of 2 full weeks of raiding. Maybe more.

TLDR: These special cases that we dream up to fine tune our looting rules will rarely happen. Not worth the trouble. Plus I hate the idea of being in a guild like that. We're friends and friends of friends. Let's just be what we are. The current rules are helping spread the love - I approve (sort of) - no need to calc it all out.